Responding to my blog entry the other day entitled Bishops and Girls in Neckties, a conservative Catholic took issue with my celebration of humanism and the moral code of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I see it as the moral code of the modern world and urge its fullest possible acceptance. It's not morality, my correspondent insists. Only (traditional - his understanding of traditional) Catholic morality which deals with sin - is to be taken seriously.
It's always good to see ideas spelled out in black and white, I think. Because Blogger doesn't permit lengthy exchanges in the commentary, I am posting our exchange here. I assume my discussion partner has no objections, since his remarks appeared on this blog in another location. He goes by Frontline Supervisor.
His first comment appeared on June 3.
Wrong. History is full of examples of Christians who have refused to bend to the non-Christian culture of their time and place, from Apostolic days onward. Christians RIGHT NOW in the Middle East are being TORTURED and KILLED because they WILL NOT bow to Islamic beliefs and prevailing "morality"! How much more shall we uncompromised Western believers with religious liberty protection and civil law on our side, at risk more of being socially ostracized by Christ-deniers and culturally compliant carnal Christians than flogged, imprisoned or stoned to death, REFUSE to bow to the evil Zeitgeist, the spirit of this post-Christian age, with your wicked idea of comparing disagreement with sexual sin to "white supremacy" or labelling "exclusion" of Christ-rejecting Jews from Heaven as "anti-Semitic". The God of ISRAEL, Jew AND Gentile alike, laughs at that modernistic ignorance.
Churches do NOT have to change to accommodate majority cultural morality. I will not. We have the God-given RIGHT to be patriarchal, family centered, sexually pure, against masturbation, sensual worldly music, booze, pot, immodest dress, Hollywood, Godless government schools and ecumenism. Whatever applies to the billion-plus member Roman megalith, small Bible churches do NOT have to be "political" organizations who follow "democracy" either. I don't need a majority, or even 0.1 per cent to agree with me- just two or three gathering together agreed in His holy name plus God is enough.
As a Christian who is Millennial (20-something) and in the *moral MINORITY*, who proudly rejects the modern Western "equality, diversity, inclusion" view which holds a serial killer's life more valuable than a fetus' life and compares sex acts to skin color, I will just opt to withdraw even further from the secular culture and live in my country as a small religious minority if the currently "mainstream conservative" churches surrender to the culture. There will be an ultra-traditional remnant 100, 200, 500, yea even 10,000 years from now that will reject modernism's heretical lies if the Lord tarries.
As for defending my views? Only Christ's Body get to Heaven. Pluralism is a satanic delusion wrought by those who underestimate the awesome holiness of God and the depth of man's sin. I do not pray with false religionists, "interfaith" events are not acceptable. Luther's "exclusion" of Jews in terms of their blatant rejection of Christ recorded in God's Word, as builders who obstinately reject their Cornerstone Messiah Jesus (Yeshua) Christ is still applicable- his violence and hatred was wrong but it's better to "offend" Jews, Muslims, Mormons etc. by warning them of eternal perdition than "love" and "include" them as far as the Lake of Fire! "Inter-religious" "dialogue" only skirts the question sinners must face: are you washed in Christ's Blood or not? I scoff at foolish talk of "sides of history". Get on the right side of ETERNITY today. Missing out on mainstream cultural affirmation in this life is well worth it.
-A Christian who is about reality, not rhetoric, in my refusal to adapt to evil social norms.
To which I responded, on June 4th:
Dear Frontline Supervisor:
Thanks for tuning in with your reaction to what I had to say about the accommodation of Catholic church (and church school) officials to the values that prevail in San Francisco and most modern Western cultures.
You begin by declaring that I am wrong, but you don’t specify what I am wrong about. I’m guessing you are referring to my last statement, that the church will sooner or later embrace universal human rights and the morality of equality without regard to race, creed, gender or sexuality.
Your challenge brings to light an erroneous assumption on my part. I should not have said that the church will someday embrace these rights and this morality. A good portion of what you call the Body of Christ already does! What I should have said is that my guess is that more and more of the rest of these people will come to do so as well. Ever since the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was composed, the trend has been, with occasional backsliding, in a single direction – toward the embrace of democracy and equality. That is as true inside your church as in the world at large.
You may disagree, and you are probably right that there will always be a holdout of diehard authoritarians willing to support with their last dying breath the claims to power of the patriarchal hierarchy.
But do you seriously want to be among those whose dying breath is exhaled around the words, “Don’t pray with Protestants” or “Don’t let women have an equal say” or “Keep those horny teenagers away from the Eucharist!”
Your church has a magnificent potential for uplift and compassion. Why would you reduce a house of “many dwelling places” to a single cramped shack of smug zealots with narrow horizons and limited imaginations?
He then wrote again, on June 6th. He wrote two entries. I have combined them into one, and this time interspersed my comments with his. His words are in italics; mine are not.
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a
fundamentally cosmopolitan Humanistic document. Although there is much to be
respected and applauded within its text, I do not consider it to determine
morality.
Whether
you recognize it as a moral code or not, it is one. You have a moral code which you follow based on
the teachings of your church as you understand them. But the concept of morality and ethics far
predates your church. The world’s major
religions all have well-established codes of morality in addition to their
creation myths, liturgical practices and cultural traditions. Yours is but one of those. And there is no shortage of non-religious
based ethical systems as well. You could
benefit from opening your windows and looking out. And take notice, when you do, of how well the
world functions outside of the reach of your church. And notice too how many of the practices of
your church other people consider downright immoral.
Why? I believe no human ideology, even
one supported by myriad great statesmen, diplomats, jurists and philosophers,
backed by international agreements and many pieces of human positive law, can
trump God's Word in moral terms.
Trump? You think this is a contest? A my daddy can beat up your daddy test of
moral codes? You really ought not to
make the mistake of thinking your beliefs are superior to the beliefs of
others. There is no way such a claim
will ever hold water, since it is based on self-reference. If it suits you to enter this belief system,
by all means have at it. But give the
world a break and recognize there are things out there in the universe beyond
your knowledge and experience. By
shutting the door to thought the way you do, you remove the opportunity to
question and to learn, to rethink your assumptions and expand your horizons.
Just as a national government making something
legal or a culture widely embracing it as socially acceptable does not
necessarily change its moral status, making something an international human
right has no bearing on whether it is SIN!
Sin
is a religious concept. Few people
outside your religion care one whit about sin.
It’s your way to police yourself (and others, unfortunately). It has no place in public discourse, unless
you close the doors and windows to the world and talk only amongst yourselves.
No, it is not "as true" that
"my church" is included in the general egalitarian shift as for
mainline Christians and secularists. This is mostly due to the fact it was set
up relatively recently as a bulwark for Bible-believers in large part to offer
sanctuary from the dangerously compromised mainline and the ever-leftward
"trend" of drift in secular society. I do not deny that most churches
would be swimming in this direction even if they never embrace the farther
fringes of the postmodern liberal project; however, there are exceptions.
I’m
not sure what you’re trying to say in your sentence “No, it is not "as true" that "my church" is
included in the general egalitarian shift as for mainline Christians and secularists”.
I think you mean your church is not part
of the general egalitarian shift shared by most mainline Christians and
secularists, right? Well, that’s true,
but only to people who define your church narrowly, as the Roman structure,
which came in fairly late in church history as a power grab, and did serious
damage to the body of believers who were (and still are) trying their best to
live according to the teachings of a great moral leader. Members of this oligarchy stole the church,
made it into an old-boy’s club, and continue to this day pretending to be
entitled to speak with the voice of God.
I said earlier that I don’t really care how you Catholics fight amongst
yourselves, but that’s not quite true.
Over time, I have come away from being disgusted by what I thought was
the church (the organization as you appear to be defining it) and come to
recognize it is actually what the people who collectively call themselves
Catholic say it is – a body of believers, a spiritual place many call home. The pope, the curia, the cardinals and the
bishops may want to think they are the church, but more and more Catholics have
spoken out and put a lie to their claims.
So what you said above is factually inaccurate. Most Catholics have, in fact, joined with other Christians and secularists in
embracing the values we have come to call humanistic enlightenment values. And that’s a wonderful thing.
"Do I want to be among those whose
dying breath is exhaled..." Well I would prefer if there was no need for
conflict but this is a fallen world and so the choice is to fight (spiritually
and culturally) or surrender...I'm not the white flag type. So, faute de mieux,
yes if not on the specific hyperbolic terms you put it in.
I’m
sorry. I don’t know you, but I would
wish you a better fate.
"Uplift" is a slippery word.
The Church is NOT for the purpose of making people feeeeel better about
themselvvvves *California drawl* but getting people saved, instructing them in
discipleship, fellowshipping to worship the Lord corporately, and living Godly
for Jesus, the Church, their family and the wider world. Some people who speak
of "uplift" want to turn the Church into a man-centric (not
Christ/Cross-centric), psycho babbling affective education facility. I say no
Sir, there is Esalen and whatever other ungodly third-force institution if you
want humanistically defined "uplift"...which often includes
"affirmation" of inappropriate beliefs, values and choices. We would
not "affirm" your gay lifestyle nor your anti-Christian worldview at
our church(affirm! to think professed men of God use that word in respect of
evil!)
I’m
sorry you have never known the uplift that comes from the Catholic church. I haven’t either, but I know many who have. They speak of being lifted up by the Eucharist,
the sense of community, the belief in a Savior.
It may not be the church’s main purpose, as you see it, but don’t sell
it short. It can be a wonderful thing.
You
say you do not “affirm” my “gay lifestyle.”
My Lord, young man, what makes you think I give a shit? First off, it’s not a lifestyle. Secondly, shame on you for coming down on the
way other people live their lives. What
arrogance you have! If you want to see
why people are running in all directions from your church, take a look in the mirror. It’s that smug arrogance, that know-it-all
sophomoric notion of being superior that drives people away. Evil?
No, we’re not evil, most of us outside your narrow circle. We’re doing the best we can, trying, failing
and trying again to live life to the fullest, to do good and to be good. Give us a break.
Compassion? AMEN to that! much of the
work we do along with that of like-minded churches and ministries is profoundly
rooted in and driven by compassion. There is a false dichotomy peddled by some
ultra-libs between kind, caring "social gospel" mainline folk and
harsh ignorant "fundies", based on their slander that anyone on the
right politically or theologically is uncompassionate! I suspect often
motivated by a wish to shift focus from their aberrant beliefs and conduct to
their "enemies".
Your last line is typical of what
cosmopolitan-intersectionalist sophisticates have to say about small town folk
who are not so indulgent of false doctrine, "self-fulfilment" and
sensuous decadence.
“Cosmopolitan-intersectionalist”??? Sounds positively erotic. I’ve never been labeled that before. I think I like it.
“Indulgent of false doctrine”? - Your
certitude absolutely amazes me. And
still in your 20s, you say? Do you think
you have anything left to learn?
Are
you really from a small town where people don’t appreciate self-fulfillment? Don’t indulge in it from time to time? Why would you – why would anyone - want to
live in such a place?
Sensuous decadence?
Oh
dear.
As for Catholics and "San Francisco values", while the
hierarchy and plenty of devout pro-traditional-family laypeople continue to
stand firm on most issues stereotyped as "culture war"---they show
zero church discipline much of the time, supposedly having a clear guideline
for excommunication but it is hardly ever used since Vatican II.
One of precious few exceptions being Lefebvre, and SSPXers were excommunicated
for being *too* conservative and in some cases anti-Semitic...I do not agree
with or have close contact with that grouping & as a person of Jewish
descent I take great issue with Shoah minimization and apparent support for a
fascist party [French FN] in their ranks.
But then you have Michael Moore tweeting about attending Sunday Mass and using
his ostensible Catholic faith to defend political positions (not that Barry
Lynn or Norman Lear have called him out on it!) and for suggesting he be
excommunicated a friend of mine was called EXTREMIST!
Extremist? Moore's worldview is not from any recognizable wing of Catholic
orthodoxy...he is an out-and-out, bomb throwin, San Francisco values, ROBERT
CROMEY-CARTER HEYWARD- KATE RAGSDALE wing Episcopal style sensualist who has
said God created gay sex and enjoys watching it all, believes in sexual
freedom, federal tax funded abortion on demand, even minor girls and post 20
weeks, says he yas no moral objection to drug use and supports legalizing
(nearly) all of 'em attacked Giuliani for trying to restrain porn and stripping
in NYC, likened Black conservatives to the US Nazi collaborator PoW in
Slaughterhouse 5, compared Clarence Thomas to a slave and Scalia to KKK, blamed
the Clinton impeachment on "obsessed" sexually "repressed"
Republicans, provided affective education, values clarification &
*sensitivity training encounter groups* to teens w/o parental involvement in
the 70s (see "Davison Hotline"), slammed an abortion litmus test down
on poor (profamily Catholic Dem) Bart Stupak's head in 2010!, advocates
explicit sex ed and secret condom handouts in public schools, openly defends
Jeremiah Wright, holds every person's diverse spiritual (non-)belief is valid
FOR THEM so detests absolute Truth and proselytizers, says the Bible is to be
taken for our self-improvement and not literally, applauds ACT-UP stunts, finds
Bill Clinton and Barack Obama not pro-abortion *enough* for him...and somehow
it's the person *questioning* whether he belongs in the RCC is extreme? I
REALLY doubt it!
Until they start to crack down on radicals in the public eye, telling them
"hey- this is America, if you really prefer Episcopal or U.C.C.
"values" you can always use your religious liberty and find an
affirming inclusive embrace in their arms, but if you wanna be a Catholic in
good standing get repenting!"- the Catholic Church stands little chance of
weathering the secular storm.
Feel better now?