Anne Will |
From a distance, this is small potatoes stuff. But the fact that one more difference between
straight married couples and couples in registered partnerships has been
eliminated is no small thing. It has to
do with critical mass. A straw that
breaks the camel’s back of resistance to full and equal rights for gay people. It has unleashed a flood of demands that the
Bundestag, controlled largely by Angela Merkel’s conservative union parties,
follow through and eliminate the rest of the barriers to full equality. Specifically, gay couples cannot adopt as a
couple. Only one partner’s name goes on
the adoption papers. If that partner
dies, the child belongs to nobody. Next stop, full adoption rights for both
members of a gay partnership.
This trajectory was played out this month on two of
Germany’s most popular talk shows, one of which is hosted by Anne Will. (I’ll get to the other later, if I can.) Far more earnest than Oprah or Ellen on a
number of occasions, she has the intelligence of Bill Maher without the sharp
tongue. She takes on the kinds of topics
you might find on Charlie Rose, but keeps a panel discussion format which
invites lively, sometimes angry, debate, the kind of discussions you can really
sink your teeth into. When she gets a
group of panelists together, she knows how to pick them.
Her latest program, on June 12, addressed the Constitutional (Supreme) Court decision on income averaging and went beyond. The program’s title, “Same sex rights for
Gays – is marriage no longer sacred?” was clearly designed to bring in the
broadest possible audience. The actual debate was more serious and more
substantial than the popular press title might suggest. It laid bare where the lines are not between
the conservatives and the liberals, but the way in which changes of attitude
and policy are taking place within the conservative camp. Unlike in America, where moderate Republicans
have almost disappeared and “conservative” refers to right-wing politics and a
party in thrall to extremists, German so-called Conservatives – the CDU/CSU and
the FDP, the Free Democratic Party – are themselves split. FDP leader and Vice Chancellor, Philip Rösler, speaking for the FDP, threw
his full support behind the decision along with Justice Minister Sabine
Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger (all ten syllables of her) in urging full
adoption rights for gays and lesbians. And so did “the Wild Thirteen” – a group
of progressive members of the CDU.
Couples in registered partnerships can now average their
incomes, a right held until now only by married couples. And there’s icing on the cake. The law will be retroactive back to August 1,
2001. For couples where one partner works and
earns an income which puts him/her in a high income tax bracket, and the other
partner earns little or nothing, this can turn out to be a considerable
savings. Single people might argue that
this support for marriage is unfair, but in reality there is consensus that
marriage as an institution should be supported, so there’s no chance of
eliminating this marriage advantage. The
only question is who gets it. Extending
it to gays and lesbians in registered partnerships makes sense if you consider their
relationships worth supporting. If you
don’t, you see only the loss to the national treasury, even though it involves
only one-tenth of one percent of all German couples.
The amazing thing is that there’s so much more going on in
conservative circles. For example, a
“Rainbow Family Center” opened recently in Schöneberg, in Berlin, to “serve gay, bisexual, trans and intersex
people with family planning and with educational opportunities.” The local representative in the Bundestag for
Schöneberg, Jan-Marco Luczak, is a member of the “Wild 13”
faction, thirteen representatives of the CDU who have come out in favor of
extending full rights to lgbt people.
Anne Will’s guests included two prominent gay men speaking
in favor of full civil rights for lgbt people, David Berger and Michael
Kauch. I wrote a review of David
Berger’s book, Holy Illusion, a
couple years ago. The book established
him as a major critic of church hypocrisy and gave him a prominent place among
gay rights activists. Michael Kauch is the FDP (Free Democratic Party)’s coordinator for gay and
lesbian policy.
On
the other side of the debate are one of the CDU politicians still holding out
against extending full rights to gays and lesbians, Erika Steinbach, and Hedwig
Freifrau von Beverfoerde, a woman arguing from a Catholic perspective that gay
people are inherently disordered. We’ll let the “nobiliary particles” in her name
pass without further comment.
The program is still available here, as of this writing, on the
ARD (Germany’s public television) website and after it is taken down it may still be available on YouTube here.
I’ve put a summary in English of the 70-minute discussion at
the end, for those of you who don’t know German or don’t want to sit through
the entire thing live.
The reason I think it is worth calling attention to is this:
It’s hard to be gay or lesbian and listen to discussions
such as these without extreme annoyance and frustration. It was immensely satisfying to me to watch
the two gay men register that frustration.
And to see the battle being fought so capably in Germany. There was more civility in this exchange than
in many American exchanges, where the religious nuts are so totally clueless. But the prejudices and misconceptions were
the same.
The women on the right kept insisting there was no reason
for supporting gay rights because gays and straights are simply different. “I know,” said Frau Steinbach. “I look at things scientifically. I can tell when things are the same and when
things are different.” And she takes the
obvious differences between gays and straights to what she thinks is a logical
conclusion. There is no reason to grant
gays rights.
Frau von Beverfoerde is a party-line Catholic. Gays should not have rights because
homosexuality is just plain wrong.
In the end, this is not an argument in which “intelligent
people will reach different conclusions and simply have to agree to
disagree.” It is an argument in which
one side continues to find something wanting in the other side, something
inferior, sick or dangerous or sinful or abnormal or second-best. And the other side refuses to be so labeled.
As we wait for the Supreme Court decisions on Prop. 8 and
DOMA, we can at least take comfort in the fact that in other countries –
Germany being only one example – that the “disparagers” seem to be on the run. National legislators are helping their
countries become “more perfect unions”
in terms of rights previously denied to lgbt people. The debates go on, and there will be missteps
and steps backwards. But there is
progress to be celebrated.
SUMMARY
Here are some of the highlights of the exchanges. What I have put in quotation marks is, I
believe, an accurate summary but not necessarily a word-for-word translation:
Steinbach establishes her position with the “Some of my best
friends” argument. She has nothing
against gays, and by the way isn’t it a scandal how badly they are treated in
Russia and Poland, but their partnerships should not be financially supported
by the state. The state has a special
responsibility to support marriages as the foundation of society. It has no such obligation with gays and
lesbians.
“What the state supports must be in
the interest of the future, and the future lies in the family. Everything else has my respect, but where the
state puts its money must be in ways that “transport the future.”
Michael Kauch then establishes his position. The court made the right decision. Where there are responsibilities there must
also be rights. Gay people pay the same
taxes, and they should have the same benefits.
Steinbach: Gay people who live together and take care of
each other are no different from any other people – a sister and her mother, or
two brothers, for example. That’s not
the same thing as somebody living in a marriage.
Kauch: Why do you insist on seeing gay people’s
partnerships, which for all intents and purposes are indistinguishable from
marriages, as lesser than a marriage?
Why must they be compared to brothers living together and not a married
couple?
The conversation switches to the fact that on the following
Friday new legislation will be introduced into the Bundestag for a first
reading extending rights to gays. von Beversfoerde
enters the conversation with the observation that she finds the speed with
which gay issues are taken up unfair when there are so many other people in
greater need of the legislators’ attentions – people raising children, for
example.
Why do you suppose this is, Will asks her.
von Beverfoerde: That’s obvious. They have a very effective lobby. (sounds of protest from the audience)
von Beverfoerde continues, insisting the difference between
gay relationships and married couples are patently obvious, and there is no
reason for them to be treated as if they were alike.
Kauch steps in. The
court has established that there is no reason, he says, why they must be treated
differently. And that leads to first von
Beverfoerde and then Steinbach both insisting that this is a case of judicial
activism (I’m putting the American English word on it – von Beverfoerde claims,
“it appears we are now being governed by the court” and Steinbach backs her up,
saying, the whole basis of the argument is false, and judges should stay out of
the way and let legislators do their job.
David Berger comes in at this point. When Will asks him if he, as a Catholic, can
understand the position von Beverfoerde is taking, he brings out the big
guns. “When I place where she stands in
the church, yes.” Hers is a reactionary
position, he says, and the sparks start to fly.
She protests. What is that
organization you represent, the Familienschutzbund (Family Protection Union) or
whatever, one of those organizations run by the Vatican.
“We don’t
live in Catholistan; we live in the Federal Republic.”
He then turns to Steinbach and her talk of financial support
only of families and in terms of the future.
When you say “family” you need to
consider what the family is today and what the family of the future will be and
not talk in terms of the family of the 1950s.
Steinbach comes back with the argument, “When you look
around the world, that view that you are propagating (sic) is a minority view,”
and repeats her insistence that the state must support only that which assures
a future.
“So you don’t accept David Berger’s view?”
“It’s a minority view, and irrelevant as far as the state is
concerned.”
Another outburst from the audience, and both Berger and
Kauch show immediate frustration and impatience.
Kauch addresses Steinbach.
Mrs. Steinbach. The people do not exist for the state. The state exists for the people.
After being interrupted with cheers and applause, Kauch
continues:
The time in which the state
supported reproduction, those days are gone.
Steinbach is undaunted.
We live at a time when we don’t have enough people to support the
economy and have to import foreign labor.
We need to get back to supporting the future of the nation.
Kauch then says:
The reason heterosexual couples
don’t have children is not because gay relationships are being set on a par
with straight relationships. The reason
there are fewer children is that women are not finding men with whom they want
to have children.
The discussion then circles back to the “some of my best
friends” argument. Steinbach actually
uses the expression. “We have gay
friends and I have the highest respect for them.” Will asks her, “Do they have children?” “Of course not,” Steinbach says, “Gay people
cannot produce children. That would be a
biological miracle.”
The conversation then veers off into a discussion of what a
marriage is. Steinbach says she is
“scientifically oriented” and knows not to put things together that are not
alike. A marriage is something between a
man and a woman. von Beverfoerde defines
it as: “a union for life between a man and a woman who commit to an exclusive
spiritual and physical relationship; that is, they agree to exclude all others
sexually.” That leads to the question of
how it is that one third of all marriages end in divorce. The two women admit it doesn’t always work,
but “it’s the principle that counts” (von Beverfoerde) and “the important thing
is that the couple intends for it to work when they marry” (Steinbach).
To which Kauch responds, “And you think gay couples don’t
marry with the same intentions?”
Kauch then addresses the point that bothers many gays when
asked why they are not satisfied to have all the rights of marriage without the
name. When you have to fill out a form
designating your marital status and you have to choose between “life partnered”
and
“married,” and that marks you as gay or lesbian, he says.
“We don’t all live in the middle of
Berlin. Identifying yourself as gay in
some parts of the country has negative consequences.”
After some discussion about the importance of tolerance and
civility, von Beverfoerde turns to Berger and says, in effect, “I’ve got a bone
to pick with you.” You have, she says,
in the past tried to shut down the free expression of those who don’t share
your views.
Berger rises to his defense.
You’ve got that wrong, he tells her.
What I was criticizing was hate speech.
[Germany, unlike the U.S does not permit any advocacy of Nazism or anti-Semitism
and the principle of prohibition of hate speech is well established.] It bothers me, he says, that people sometimes
occupy seats on television in the role of experts, and spew invective in the
guise of opinion.
Berger then turns to Steinbach and says, “You know what
bothers me is all this talk of reproduction.
It’s as if you worked for the Bureau of Agriculture and were occupying
yourself with raising chickens.”
See! That’s what I’m
talking about, says von Beverfoerde. No,
says Berger, I’m simply expressing the opinion that there is something wrong
with reducing all talk of family to the issue of reproduction. And the Constitutional Court did the right
thing. It addressed the family of the
future, not the family of the 1950s.
The conversation then goes to whether a child should have
both a father and a mother, as von Beverfoerde claims.
Kauch: We live in an
age when a third of all marriages end in divorce, where one-third of all
children born in the Federal Republic are not born to married couples. There are all manner of families and that is
the modern-day reality. What counts for
a child is not whether he or she is born and raised in a mother-father family,
but how much he or she is loved and cared for.
And especially how the parents get along with each other.
The discussion goes off the tracks again briefly. Will turns to Steinbach and says, “What do
you have against recognizing the family Mr. Kauch has made with his partner and
the lesbians who have borne the child they have adopted. Steinbach answers, “That’s not an adopted
child; it’s a ‘self-produced’ child.
Berger: I’m shocked that a politician like you could use
such language.
Steinbach defends herself by saying the distinction is
important. When it comes to adoption,
she says, there are seven times more couples seeking to adopt as there are
children to adopt. “And I think,” she
says, “it’s important that these children be placed in stable environments.”
Will: And by “stable” you mean man-and-wife couples?
Steinbach: No, I mean only that kids can be really mean, and
can bully a child who is different. I’m
just saying, since we have so many normal families seeking to adopt, we don’t
have any need to seek out alternative families.
Kauch: You’re talking only about small children. When it comes to adolescents, there are no
long lines of people waiting to adopt.
Isn’t it better they find loving homes than that they end of going from
one foster family to the next?
von Beverfoerde then comes back to the question of how
important it is that a child have role models.
The men insist that, in the first place, both men and women play both
roles and, in the second place, if you want a man to model the male role, there
are uncles and family friends and all sorts of people who provide that benefit.
This provides Will with the opportunity to introduce a guest
sitting in the audience. Malte Czarnetzki. Malte, his twin brother and their younger
brother live in a family with two mothers.
It is impossible to convey the power of the story this eighteen-year-old
tells. He is highly articulate and a
passionate defender of the right of same-sex couples to adopt and raise
children. When he is done, Will turns to
von Beverfoerde and asks what she thinks.
von Beverfoerde insists she finds Malte’s story wonderful, but concludes
that it’s possible one makes the best of a bad situation sometimes and there
may be things that did not come out.
This clearly annoys
Kauch, who says to her, “Now just a
minute. He’s happy with his
situation. He’s obviously well-educated,
has had a good education, gives a fantastic impression. He’s a grown young man who is certainly
capable of assessing his own life. What
is wrong with the way he was raised?
von Beverfoerde zeros
in on the claim Malte made that he has no interest in knowing who his
biological father was. His case cannot
be taken as standard, says von Beverfoerde.
Many people suffer, she says, from not knowing.
Will repeats the
question Kauch asked, “Why is it so hard for you to admit that he was raised in
a good home?”
Nobody’s arguing
that, says Steinbach. She then launches
into a personal story about her mother being raised by two aunts and suffering
tremendously from the fact. But isn’t
the issue, Will asks, that Malte grew up in a home where his parents loved and
cared for him?
Malte then speaks
up, “I’m not here to represent a heterosexual who gets along with
homosexuals. I’m here to demonstrate
that I could be raised by two homosexuals and grow up to be heterosexual. And that it would have been perfectly fine to
turn out to be homosexual. It simply
doesn’t matter.”
As the discussion
cycles back to the question of sex roles, Will changes the subject. She cites a study that shows when asked to
define a family, 97% of respondents come up with a man, a woman, and their
children. That was true in when the
study was first done in 2000, and it was the case when the study was repeated
in 2012. “Doesn’t that suggest, and don’t
the protest marches in France suggest that we may be moving too fast?” she asks
Berger.
France is a special
example, Berger answers. There groups on
both sides were well-organized and the protests were well planned in
advance. There are other places one
might also look – Spain, for example. Or
the Netherlands. Ask somebody in the
Netherlands if they could imagine a time before same-sex marriages were legal
and it strikes most people as ridiculous.
Netherlands has not only equal marriage rights, but full adoption
rights, and there are no distinctions made between straight and gay couples.
Will: But are you not impressed by the 97% figure?
Berger: No, I’m
not. I have full respect for the
traditional family. But we’re not in
competition. Of course people think of the traditional
family first. That reflects
reality. But how does that affect
non-traditional families?
What surprises me,
he continues, is that the conservatives are missing the opportunity to
recognize how very conservative the notion of marriage and children actually
is, and the fact that gays are embracing it.
How could they miss this? In
Great Britain, for example, the conservatives are falling in behind same-sex
marriage as a conservative issue.
Near the end of the
debate, Kauch returns to the question of why, if the conservatives are so
concerned with children, the issue is the form of the partnership in which
children are raised. The focus needs to
remain on the welfare of the children and not on how their parents chose to
form their partnerships.
This leads into the
story of two men who have adopted a severely mistreated child who lacked the
ability to say more than two words when they took him in at the age of
three. He has prospered and the couple
has since adopted a little girl, as well.
This raises the
burning question of the hour in Germany, now that the tax issue has been
settled. What happens to a child adopted
by two gay or lesbian parents if the parent who signed the papers dies. The state allows gays to foster children, and
single parents to adopt children, but it does not permit double adoption. It could happen that the child who loses a
parent then automatically loses the other parent at the exact moment when he or
she would be in greatest emotional need of comfort and care. Surely this must be recognized as an
injustice to the child, and changed.
Malte repeats what
he said earlier. He has not been engaged
in the issue of gay adoptions in recent years, but he is glad to come on the
program to demonstrate that gay people can raise children well. What’s important for a child, he says, is
that they learn to be socially responsible.
And that lesson they can learn as well from gay parents as from straight
ones. Why, after all these years, he
asks at the very end, are we still having these discussions?
Will puts a positive
spin on it. With that appeal for
tolerance, she says, our discussion is at an end.
photo of Anne Will is from the daserste.de (North German Broadcasting Channel One) website.
I hasten to add here that all my comments are my personal take on the program in question and the channel knows nothing, to my knowledge, of my support or interest and are in no way responsible for anything I say in regard to it.
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